THM 2005-04-12 Log D1116534458 Auriel (82.182.149.46) #! rsc9 before we get into deeper things, could someone tell #! me why native awk matters at all? #! #! uriel rsc9: because non-native awk sucks #! rsc9: I'm trying to do shell redirection from system(), #! and it's just anoying as hell #! #! newsham hey russ, I have a question for you about 9p/auth. #! when you read the protocol from the remote I get "p9sk1@domain\0", #! but it seems kenfs returns "v.2 p9sk1@..." . What does #! that mean? Is this part of the negotiation documented #! somewhere? #! #! Major-Wi yeah, like system() uses ksh #! #! uriel rsc9: it just doesn't work as expected #! #! rsc9 so system() uses ksh. any other problems? #! #! Major-Wi i thought the plan 9 shell was rc? #! #! uriel rsc9: return codes for system are also weird #! #! rsc9 "it just doesn't work as expected" isn't very specific. #! okay, so system() is different. other things? #! #! Major-Wi exits #! #! uriel rsc9: using ksh to run stuff from awk in Plan 9 is #! not what anyone would expect(and again, I haven't managed #! to get even that to work properly... but maybe I was #! doing something wrong) #! Major-Willard: yes, exits is another one #! #! rsc9 okay, system and exits. more? #! #! noselasd I think it boils down to people not liking APE. On #! the other hand , it's easy to keep in sync with bwks #! AWK :-) #! #! uriel rsc9: I think I had another one, but now I forgot :) #! #! Major-Wi it's not native #! #! newsham if you used rc instead of ksh to run system(..) wouldnt #! that require more work when porting non p9 code? #! #! uriel newsham: if I want loonix I know where to find it #! #! newsham uriel: system() is from unix, no? #! #! Major-Wi well, on 9 you'd assume rc #! #! uriel newsham: awk is not just part of ape, awk is a fundamental #! tool of the system and should work as part of the system #! #! Major-Wi yeah #! #! rsc9 e already change little pieces of awk rather than use #! bwk's distribution as is. utf handling is one area. #! i'm happy to hear that we should use our own system() #! and exit() too. #! #! uriel newsham: no, in awk you really need to get into the #! shell to do many things, specially in "real" awk that #! is rather limited in functionality(and I like it that #! way) #! #! uriel rsc9: I think I had some nasty problem with something #! else, but I'm sorry I forgot what it was, I will let #! you know when I remember... :/ #! #! rsc9 detailing specific things are just way better than #! "i made a native awk; let's use it". #! otherwise we end up in the cadt model of system development. #! #! uriel rsc9: ok, I agree #! #! Major-Wi i believe it should ALL be native #! #! uriel rsc9: I was just a bit frustrated as my understanding #! is that awk was treated more as a "unix backwards compat" #! thing rather than a first class Plan 9 member #! #! Major-Wi is this lunix or 9? #! #! rsc9 awk is a kind of middle ground. #! #! uriel Major-Willard: well, maybe we can get there some time, #! let's start with somethin and we will see where we #! get #! rsc9: yes, I guess it has a bit of a dual role #! #! rsc9 boyd, you can be a purist all you want, but once you #! port gs for the 100th time because they released a #! new version, you get tired of it. #! #! Major-Wi awk? doesn't that get used to mk the kernel? #! #! uriel rsc9: still, i feel that there is no substitute for #! it in Plan 9 world, but then I think Rob never was #! a big awk fan, right? :) #! #! rsc9 awk is a plan 9 utility as much as sed is. most of #! our awk programs don't use system() so that particular #! part isn't as well done. but bwk's awk doesn't do utf #! and the plan 9 one does. so there are accomodations. #! okay, enough of awk. #! #! musasabi Making more changes than necessary just makes updating #! ports more pain - and that time could most probably #! be spent on something better. #! #! rsc9 musasabi: exactly. #! jmk is not writing a new installer. as far as i know, #! no one is. #! #! uriel still, awk is not such a big deal, specially if the #! issues with calling external commands from it and exits #! are fixed; I was just a bit frustrated the other day #! trying to get my awk code to work, so I'm sorry if #! I made so much fuss about it #! #! Major-Wi rsc9: ken called me 'an enthusiast' #! #! uriel rsc9: yes, that has been cleaned up, still _someone_ #! somehow came up with the idea that he was... #! (thru some email that no one else has seen) #! Major-Willard: I think that quite deffines you :) #! #! rsc9 well don't blame me for that. if you can track it down, #! great, but he's not. #! #! uriel rsc9: I don't blame anyone, and I'm sorry if it seemed #! like it, I just think that if the process was a bit #! more transparent that kind of misunderstandings would #! not happen #! #! musasabi What I think would be quite nice would be an easy way #! to follow plan9 development - what is changed where #! and why. #! #! rsc9 this is really what i wanted to talk about. #! #! uriel yes :) #! #! Major-Wi uriel: i'd pissed off some guy at USG and he asked #! ken WTF? #! #! rsc9 as far as following what has happened, /dist/replica/plan9.log #! is a great start. #! #! noselasd Well, if someone thought someone was writing a new #! installer, all it'd take was a post to 9fans :-) #! #! newsham uriel: uh, you're suggesting that no one do work without #! first declaring that they're starting? #! #! uriel I got a list of items I would like to see happening #! in the Plan 9 dev community :) #! #! rsc9 boyd: and ken said "he pisses everyone off; don't worry #! about it." #! (actually i have no idea) #! #! uriel newsham: no #! newsham: but it's hard for people that comes new to #! know what is going on, or what is the dev model #! who is in charge, and so on, patch is great, but it's #! not clear who/when/what use it #! it's no clear who decides if a patch goes in or not(it's #! clear for us, but not for someone coming from outside #! that has not follwed things for quite some time) #! #! newsham uriel: I dont find it any better or worse than other #! projects (eg. cygwin or freebsd) #! #! rsc9 to the extent that anyone is in charge, it's the people #! who work for bell labs. but mainly it feels like more #! of a collaboration. #! #! uriel that has some advantages, of course, as sets a barrier #! of entry, but I think right now that barrier is a bit #! too arbitrary #! #! rsc9 jmk and i are the ones who apply patches. #! #! newsham in most projects an "outsider" would come up with a #! patch, send it to the person they think is most appropriate #! and either they would add the patch or not. #! #! Major-Wi ACTION thinks an applied patch should (auto) mail #! 9fans #! #! uriel Major-Willard: not 9fans, but we need a commits list, #! I'm going to hack it up soon #! #! rsc9 how about an applied patch appends an entry to a log #! on sources. #! #! uriel rsc9: it's easy to patch those things on top of patch, #! but not all changes go thru patch #! #! newsham uriel: see /n/sources/patch/applied #! #! __20h__ Boyd, you never joined the NetBSD-cvs ML. #! #! uriel newsham: I know, as I said, I'm going to write an script #! that generates emails from that #! #! rsc9 patch/list applied #! #! musasabi rsc9: what do you mean by /dist/replica/plan9.log - #! I can only find /dist/replica/client/plan9.log which #! is not very helpful.. (sorry for the stupid question) #! #! rsc9 musasabi: that's what i meant. #! #! uriel rsc9: that is not an issue, as I said, it works great, #! the only problem is that not all chagnes go thru patch #! #! rsc9 but all changes do go into the plan9.log. if you look #! at the changes and can't tell why they were made, then #! it's fine to ask on 9fans. #! #! mjl- musasabi: you can track all file changes with it, just #! not the description #! #! uriel rsc9: it would be nice if there was a single path, #! and the comments are really helpful, not everyone wants #! to look thru all diffs... #! rsc9: also it's nice to see who did the changes, to #! maybe comment/ask that person... but maybe that can #! be done with sources now... #! #! rsc9 comments just aren't going to happen. i thought about #! it for a while, but it's not the way the plan 9 guys #! at bell labs work. #! someone familiar with the source could certainly read #! the diffs and maintain a changelog. uriel? #! #! uriel rsc9: hehehe.. #! rsc9: well, then I guess I will try to hack something #! that picks up the things from sources... #! #! noselasd I would be *mad* if I had to add comment to every thing #! I change in projects at work.. #! #! rsc9 the fact of the matter is that if you care about why #! things were changed, then you're already reading the #! source. #! #! newsham is it really needed though? #! #! uriel rsc9: but it woud be nice to at least know who did #! the change, I will look if that can be get from sources #! #! rsc9 ls -lm will show you who pushed it out to sources. #! #! noselasd So I actually understand adding comments may not be #! "doable" :.-) #! #! uriel rsc9: not everyone does, I know many people that follows #! the commits lists of various projets, and they don't #! reall all the src, they just read mostly the comments #! to know what is going on #! (ask Oksel) #! #! __20h__ Comments? I don't even add such things into the code. #! #! mjl- i'm oksel, but under plan9 #! #! rsc9 so fine, then maybe someone maintaining a changelog #! would be a good contribution, but it won't be any of #! us. #! #! newsham uriel: so if you read through the patch/applied and #! miss out on 5 or 10% of the additions, are you missing #! that much? #! #! uriel __20h__: code should be slef documenting, changes are #! different #! #! mjl- anyway, users could easily make commit logs #! #! rsc9 the bulk of the changes come from patch anyway. #! #! musasabi Usually when following a typical open source project #! I just subscribe to the cvs list and get mails about #! commits and look at the diff if the message indicates #! it is something interesting. Of course one can allways #! diff but that is not very nice to look "is this something #! interesting". #! #! mjl- once a simple mechanisme to comment on changes has #! been mae #! #! newsham if you're actively modifying code, you'll notice if #! there's a replica/pull that affects code you're working #! on and you'll know the code enough to dif #! if you're just trying to get a feel for "whats going #! on", its probably not that important if you miss an #! item or two #! #! rsc9 okay, i think we've beat this changelog thing into #! the ground. #! #! mjl- yups #! #! noselasd musasabi: But what is the usefulness of that ? It's #! "nice to know" bot imo not significant.. #! #! rsc9 i'd be happy to have someone maintain a changelog on #! the side and email us if they want to know more about #! a change that wasn't done through patch. #! #! uriel noselasd9: it's more significant for people that are #! just starting to get into the system #! #! rsc9 switching to patch acceptance criteria (and feel free #! to add this to the wiki). #! jmk or i apply patches. acceptance criteria aren't #! well-defined, but basically i want to see: #! #! uriel rsc9: yes, documenting that a bit would be very nice #! #! rsc9 1. an explanation of what the problem is #! #! noselasd uriel: Ok - thatks a point. #! #! rsc9 2. a minimal set of fixes, with no gratuitous changes #! 3. the new code has to look like (style-wise) the old #! code #! 4. if the external behavior changes, document the change #! #! m4dh4tt3 #2 meaning to include no whitespace or formatting changes, #! yes? #! #! rsc9 #2 yes. #! #! m4dh4tt3 that makes sense #! most other projects i know of have the same requirements #! #! rsc9 if i get patches that don't do those 4, then sometimes #! i sorry them #! with a note explaining what i'd like to see in a future #! patch. #! #! musasabi as a sidenote would patches adding commentation to #! existing code be welcome? #! #! m4dh4tt3 gratuitous changes of that nature make it more difficult #! for the reviewer to actually review the code #! #! uriel yes, sounds very reasonable, just what we needed #! #! rsc9 but most of the time i just bring the patch up to snuff #! myself, noting what i did, and then apply it. #! #! uriel rsc9: do you want to make a wiki page about "how to #! contribute"? or should someone else(me?) do it based #! on what you said here? #! #! rsc9 o for example i edit almost all the man page changes #! that get submitted for english and man page conventions. #! i haven't edited the wiki in years. i'd prefer someone #! else do it. #! #! uriel rsc9: ok, I will do #! #! rsc9 my first letters of sentences are occasionally getting #! chopped off due to an acme irc bug. y'all will have #! to cope. ;-) #! #! uriel heh, you should try irc7, seems very popular this days #! :) #! #! Major-Wi ACTION agrees with that despite #3, but learnt the #! necessity for #3 while hacking the 7th Ed sh #! #! m4dh4tt3 thanks, uriel. i was going to jump in, but i don't #! have a drawterm open ATM #! #! Major-Wi yo m4 #! #! rsc9 if you create a patch and then use patch/email to give #! us your email address, you get email notification when #! the patch is applied/sorried. #! #! __20h__ Irc7 only supports one channel. #! #! m4dh4tt3 rsc9: i think we can interpolate ;-) #! #! rsc9 any other patch questions? #! #! Major-Wi deletions? #! #! uriel rsc9: "saved"? #! #! m4dh4tt3 rsc9: thanks for providing those guidelines for the #! community. from the patches i've submitted in the past #! (before patch), i pretty much gathered all that, but #! it's good for the rest of the community to know. #! #! newsham 20h: irc7 is f2f's server/client? if so, you can open #! multiple windows in different channels, and you can #! still use multiple channels in one window if you dont #! bind the window to a channel #! #! rsc9 patch/note saved/whatever-is-there will tell you about #! saved. #! #! uriel rsc9: seems a bit weird and redundant, just reject #! it and sugest put into sources dir #! #! rsc9 saved is for things that aren't going in just because #! they don't fit in/feel like plan 9. #! #! uriel rsc9: yes, but then why wasn't rio-bg saved? ;P #! #! rsc9 sorry is for things that have been rejected. the intent #! is to clean up applied and sorry once in a while so #! they don't grow without bound. #! #! newsham btw, does patch/create work in acme? the first tiem #! I tried it in acme I had issues but I dont know if #! it was just the long delay that threw me off or the #! bits that make it put the rio window into editing mode #! (its been too long for me to recall exactly) #! #! musasabi A simple "how to contribute a patch" example could #! be nice in the wiki. #! #! uriel rsc9: my point is, why not just let people maintain #! external patches in their own dirs... #! #! rsc9 i actually thought rio-bg was the one i saved. i was #! surprised earlier today when i noticed i hadn't. #! #! newsham musa: there's an example in the man page, no? #! #! rsc9 patch/create assumes it can turn on hold mode. it probably #! doesn't work well in win windows. #! #! uriel rsc9: if the sources "private" dirs are organized a #! bit better, I think that would be a much better place #! for things that are not ready, or don't even fit into #! the main distribution, but that some people might like #! to keep around #! #! newsham that would be good to note in the wiki too. (and maybe #! the man page) #! #! uriel yup, I have in my TODO list looking over patch/*; it #! could use some polishing #! BUGS? :) #! #! Major-Wi deletions #! #! uriel but should be easy to fix, I hope.. #! #! rsc9 boyd: fix deletions and i'll apply the patch. #! #! uriel what is "deletions"? sorry, I missed that #! #! __20h__ Patch doesn't support the deletion of files. #! #! uriel ah, I see, yes #! #! musasabi newsham: that does not say anything about adding/removing #! files (or directories) #! #! mjl- patching files into existence works #! #! rsc9 deletions are not very common so i'm not very worried. #! adding files does work. #! i moved some stuff into patch/save #! saved #! any other patch complaints? #! #! uriel rsc9: I think nothing significant... I would say that #! still would be nice if the labs would use it, even #! without comments, but well.. #! #! musasabi an email notification to a list when something happens #! could be nice, but by no means very important. #! #! __20h__ What if I want to patch a saved patch? #! #! uriel (maybe a way to just have it apply automatically pathces #! if you have the right perms #! musasabi: I will do that #! #! __20h__ There's an typo in the rio-background. #! #! musasabi uriel: thanks. #! #! rsc9 it can't automatically apply patches because of the #! way we keep our internal source tree in sync with sources. #! #! uriel musasabi: the only thing is that with the current system #! I have to make something that checks both sources/replica #! and patch... which is a bit anoying as they look qutie #! different #! #! Major-Wi nah auto-application is a bad idea #! #! rsc9 patching saved patches doesn't seem lke a very common #! case. #! you don't need the check patch. patch is for things #! pending on sources. #! #! newsham so the patch/email thing causes automatic notification? #! What about mailing a mailing list as well? That might #! be useful. #! #! uriel rsc9: one thing, what about keeping public the list #! of changes from your private tree to the public one? #! (if that is possible) #! #! rsc9 what do you mean? #! #! Major-Wi like i said, mail 9fans #! #! rsc9 mailing 9fans will drive away all the people who don't #! care. #! #! newsham major: i dont think everything should go to 9fans #! #! uriel rsc9: jmk mentioned in his email that you guys get #! an email every day with all the files that are different #! in the distro and in your local tree. #! #! rsc9 e're talking pretty trivial stuff a lot of the time. #! #! newsham but creating a new mailing list (ie. googlegroups.com) #! is really easy these days #! #! Major-Wi look we have 250 patches #! #! __20h__ Not googlegroups.com. #! #! uriel rsc9: yes, but it's small things that make the whole #! dev model ;) #! #! Major-Wi that"s zip compared to the spam and other crapa #! #! __20h__ Google is the commercial NSA of the future. #! #! uriel __20h__: I'm sure nashi can setup some lists in mordor #! #! rsc9 i don't want to make that list public. if we want the #! change to go out, we'll push the file. seeing the file #! list doesn't strike me as very interesting. #! #! Major-Wi __20h__: :) #! #! newsham 20h: and patch/applied info is sensitive because? #! #! rsc9 i'd be happy to append the mails to a mailbox file #! on sources. if people want to watch it and generate #! auto emails from it then fine. #! #! uriel rsc9: ok, I jsut thought it was interesting if someone #! was working on something that had pending changes or #! something, but well #! newsham: good question #! rsc9: sounds like a cool idea #! #! rsc9 uriel: that's not the way that list works. if something #! has changed in our main tree, it almost always goes #! out. people working on little projects keep it in their #! own home directories for the most part. #! the bulk of the files are config. #! #! __20h__ newsham, it's like who cares about privacy, because #! they knew already everything? #! #! rsc9 the only two things sitting in the tree that are major #! are software cursor support (waiting to finish vbe) #! and usb storage (from /n/sources/rmiller, and he asked #! us not to put it in the tree yet) #! #! uriel rsc9: I see, that makes sense, then it would be nice #! what interesting work might be lurking in the corners #! of home dirs, but I guess that is harder ;) #! #! rsc9 that's things sitting in our internal tree that aren't #! on sources. #! #! newsham 20h: i'm not sure what the issue would be with the #! nsa (or any other govt organization) seeing any public #! mailing list. its a public list. #! #! Major-Wi deletions? how about the 0 mode 0 size file? #! #! uriel rsc9: there is people outside the labs working in vbe(I #! guess you know alreay)... #! #! __20h__ newsham, it's about Google -- but that's not the discussion. #! #! uriel rsc9: and I know some people interested in hacking #! usb storage #! #! rsc9 i saw some comment about andrey having special access #! to insider info in the logs. that's not really true. #! we'll talk to anyone who emails us. it's just that #! a lot of people seem content to speculate on irc instead #! of dashing off an email. #! #! newsham irc rumors are more enticing than reality. #! #! musasabi rsc9: well most newbies don't know who to send the #! email ;) #! #! rsc9 they handed the vbe code to me to put into the tree, #! and i'm still integrating it. i'm working on putting #! it in aux/vga instead of 9load. if someone wants to #! help, feel free to email me. #! #! uriel rsc9: ok, sorry, that is my fault, but well, one doesn't #! want to bother you guys too much with obvious questions... #! #! rsc9 musasabi: then it's up to you old-time irc hands to #! point them in the right direction. or you email us #! instead. #! #! uriel rsc9: if a contact point was documented somewhere it #! would be nice, can we put your email in the wiki as #! "contact point"(maybe better 9fans)... which brings #! us to plan9-dev list... #! #! rsc9 uriel: people who want to hack usb storage can look #! in /n/sources/miller and then contact richard with #! changes. he's heading that up. #! #! uriel I understand that some people don't feel confortable #! discusing serious stuff in 9fans due to all the noise, #! but it seems that plan9-dev failed... #! #! rsc9 boyd: treating deletions as size 0 files (no need for #! mode 0) sounds fine to me. #! #! Major-Wi well, i like overkill #! #! uriel rsc9: do you think a low-noise forum is needed for #! dev discusion? #! #! rsc9 i'm glad plan9-dev failed. i don't like the dichotomy. #! i refused to subscribe for quite a while, although #! i wish i'd been there to help with designing 9p2000.u. #! i think 9fans is a fine place for dev discussion. it #! happens occasionally. #! #! Major-Wi and it saw your can't read it and there's nothing in #! it #! it says #! #! uriel rsc9: ok, I see, I guess people will have to put up #! with 9fans then, the problem I see is that lots of #! disucion seems to happen in private email instead.. #! :/ #! which leaves most people out of the loop #! #! rsc9 mode 0 files are a pain because you can't even open #! them. #! #! Major-Wi and /n/sources? how does one get a dir? #! #! uriel Major-Willard: I was going to get there next #! #! rsc9 that will happen on a dev-only list too. the only reason #! to have a dev-only list is that people on 9fans don't #! want to see the dev chatter, which i very much doubt. #! #! uriel ;) #! #! musasabi btw would making a common readline function (basically #! the readln function which is copy/pasted in many places #! make sense? (just found myself copying the code and #! I could submit a patch if such a thing would be wanted #! and I knew the correct lib for it) #! #! uriel rsc9: I thought it was the other way around, people #! interested in dev wasn't interesed in 9fans noise, #! so they used priv email instead,,, I guess I was wrong #! again :) #! #! noselasd 9fans doesn't seem to be the most overloaded list. #! Dev discussion there would fit fine, no ? #! #! Major-Wi READLINE? are you MAD? #! #! rsc9 plan9-dev got created because of the ridiculous amounts #! in spam back in july. that's solved. #! #! uriel musasabi: over my dead body #! +quintile #! #! __20h__ Boyd, there's no GNU inside. ;) #! #! musasabi Major-Willard: not *nix readline. #! #! rsc9 you don't need readline unless you want to read a password. #! #! uriel rsc9: good, then that is solved #! #! rsc9 if you're reading from a console, read() returns one #! line at a time. #! #! noselasd musasabi: mouse around :-) #! #! Major-Wi i don't need readline() i have hold mode #! #! uriel rsc9: souces dirs.. #! rsc9: I documented in the wiki that to get a sources #! dir one should email you or rsc(I hope you don't mind #! :)) #! #! rsc9 the usual thing with sources dirs is to mail me or #! jmk and we'll create it. boyd is an exception. #! #! uriel rsc9: the thing is that there is no criteria to who #! gets one dir and who dosn't #! rsc9: that dosn't seem fair to me #! #! musasabi rsc9: but I don't want to assume stdin is a console #! - and the existing code seems read one char at a time #! till it gets to the end of the line.. #! #! uriel (actually it seems plain stupid to me0 #! #! rsc9 jmk wasn't feeling very kind when boyd asked. #! #! uriel rsc9: well, are you feeling more kind today? :) #! #! Major-Wi rsc9: should be a fortune " the usual thing with #! sources dirs is to mail me or jmk and we'll create #! it. boyd is an exception." #! #! rsc9 ;-) #! i'll make boyd a directory but first i want to put #! all the directories in a subdirectory #! instead of the root. #! #! uriel I personally would be upset if someone that has done #! so much for Plan 9 was left out, I think it's just #! _wrong_; boyd might be a difficult person, but that #! is no excuse not to let him contribute #! #! rsc9 choices for names? /n/sources/users/foo? /n/sources/userstuff/foo? #! #! uriel rsc9: contrib? #! #! rsc9 i'm not getting into a discussion about boyd. #! #! Major-Wi usr #! #! rsc9 there's already a contrib. #! usr is home directories which these aren't. #! #! __20h__ home :P #! #! Major-Wi they sort of are #! #! rsc9 contrib is good. #! #! uriel rsc9: yes, that needs to be cleaned up a bit, there #! is "contrib", "extras" "cvs", ... and so on, quite #! messy.. #! #! mjl- there already is a contrib... yeah #! #! quintile community ? #! #! Major-Wi no #! #! uriel quintile: too long :) #! #! Major-Wi contrib #! #! musasabi users and contrib sound nice. #! #! Major-Wi or wip #! #! uriel vt3 and I volunter to keep an index of the stuff in #! contrib then #! #! rsc9 great. #! #! uriel rsc9: some guidelines for how to use sources dirs, #! similar to the ones you gave for patch would be very #! apreciated #! (mostly to keep some order) #! #! __20h__ What's the 9grid dir for? #! #! uriel (and I guess somethign like http://plan9.bell-labs.com/9grid/AUP.html #! can be linked from the wiki) #! __20h__: good question #! #! noselasd Ick. did irc7 swallow a line of mine :- #! #! uriel (and links into my next question, that is what is up #! with *.grid.bell-labs.com.) #! #! rsc9 i don't know anything about grid. ask andrey. #! #! __20h__ Ok. #! #! rsc9 okay, i created stuff in /n/sources/contrib. please #! move your fiels. #! #! uriel rsc9: what about *.grid.bell-labs.com then? quintile #! said it's still up and running, but there is no way #! to get new accounts? #! #! rsc9 i don't know anything about grid. ask andrey. #! i believe new accounts only go to people contributing #! resources. but i know nothing. it's presotto and ron's #! baby, and it's mostly stalled. #! #! uriel ok, will do then, I thought he didn't know as he was #! around when it was discused #! well, I was asking because all the other 9grid.??-s #! poping up over the wrold.. #! #! rsc9 i don't know anything. #! #! uriel OK, I will nag f2f when he is back :) #! rsc9: about p9p and merging the docs.. #! #! rsc9 about sources/contrib, it's for posting software for #! plan 9 users. if you use up too much disk or post crap #! we'll probably do something. #! #! uriel Oksel: and I ahve looked at it, and it looks nasty.. #! the changes are too many and too hard to check which #! ones should go and with ones are p9p specific.. #! #! m4dh4tt3 rsc9: the perms on my dir in contrib are incorrect #! :-) #! #! rsc9 fixed #! #! m4dh4tt3 thx #! #! Major-Wi methinks one dir is missing #! #! uriel my proposal is to merge both documentation, and have #! an extra section for p9p specific pages, and an extra #! section inside pages that are different documenting #! the diferences for p9p #! #! rsc9 no. #! #! uriel rsc9: ok, but I tell you, merging back and forth is #! unpractical.. #! #! rsc9 i don't want p9p to pollute the main distribution. #! changes aren't frequent enough to merit that. #! #! uriel I think that you will find it harder and harder to #! keep them in sync... #! #! rsc9 if we can get them in sync to start, then keeping them #! in sync is easy. #! #! uriel well, if people wants to start working on the Plan #! 9 docs, how will you merge back? it goes both ways.. #! rsc9: it's hard for people that might have access to #! one but not the other #! #! rsc9 i know when the last time i merged was, and occasionally #! i run diff to see what's happened on sources in the #! last (say) 3 months and then do it that way. #! everyone has access to the dump on sources and to the #! cvs history for p9p. both let you diff by date. #! the trick is getting them up to date. #! that is, in sync the first time. #! regardless of what solution we decide on going forward, #! that initial work needs to happen. #! #! uriel rsc9: ok, we will try, but seems like a tedious and #! futile task from our POV.. #! #! rsc9 i don't see why it's hard to figure out, given some #! diffs, whether they apply to plan 9. #! the way i see it is this. #! the goal is to bring the plan 9 man pages up to date. #! i already identified some places #! where they were out of date and fixed it in p9p when #! i did the initial p9p man pages. #! diffing p9p and plan 9 man pages just points out some #! places where you need to update the plan 9 pages. #! i'm not saying you should diff the pages that have #! changed dramatically, like intro(1) #! #! uriel yes, but some times it's hard to tell.. #! #! mjl- i've only looked at acid, and it's a bit of a problem #! that i've never used it beyond lstk() #! so a bit hard to know what applies to both now #! #! uriel you have to actually look thru the diff to see which #! changes are p9p only and which are p9... #! #! mjl- since i also don't use the p9p version #! #! rsc9 acid is a tough one. i'd skip acid. #! #! mjl- guess that's a problem of too little experience... #! ok #! will look further then. already have some scripts that #! show diffs btw (if anyone wants them) #! #! rsc9 if you diff all the pages and make a big file with #! all the diffs, you should be able to pick out the easy #! ones. #! once you do the easy ones, feel free to email me to #! ask about the hard ones. #! #! uriel rsc9: another advantage of keeping a single copy of #! the docs is that the implementation differences are #! clearly documented somewhere, that way they can be #! keept track of, and hopefully be reduced to a minimun #! over time #! #! rsc9 i agree with you in principle. eventually i'll probably #! use cvs branches so that the p9p cvs is essentially #! keeping track of the diffs between the two. #! of course, it's naive to believe that all the implementation #! differences expose themselves in documentation. #! #! uriel ACTION would recomend using something other than cvs #! to keep track of branches, but that is a detail ;) #! rsc9: yes, but it's better to try to keep track of #! them than just ignore them #! #! newsham whats wrong with cvs branches? #! #! __20h__ dho did some sort of new "cvs" -- no code yet. #! #! rsc9 let's not talk about version control. more cadt crap. #! #! uriel newsham: merging patches back and forth from on branch #! to another is quite nasty #! rsc9: yes :) #! #! rsc9 i'm not a power user so cvs is fine. and i know how #! to use it, crappy though it is. #! #! mjl- rsc9: that's what i was trying with acid too (looking #! into the code) #! #! newsham <- likes CVS and their branch management (overall, #! some complaints of course) #! #! rsc9 don't try to diff the acid code. #! #! mjl- will do that when writing docs (which is why i come #! up with these usage patches ;)) #! #! newsham 20h: have you guys looked at larch/arch ? #! #! uriel newsham: you are crazy ;P #! #! mjl- arch... bazaar... yay #! #! noselasd Oh - SCM fest. (/me brings the popcorn) ( *SIGH*) #! #! uriel newsham: I have, lets leave it for antoher time #! #! rsc9 brb. have fun talking about version control. #! #! uriel rsc9: no, no, we gave up already! #! #! mjl- will go for a snack :) #! #! uriel ^_^ #! #! __20h__ newsham, It's not my idea. Replica and Patch is enough #! for me. #! #! noselasd Please. cvs vs whater. Insignificant. #! #! newsham arch has some nice properties (and seems to be tool #! oriented) #! #! noselasd whatever* #! #! musasabi arch is quite complex etc #! #! musasabi point. #! rsc9: So refactoring copy-paste code into common code #! is generally not a desirable change? #! #! __20h__ And who implements metadata in 9p? :P #! #! uriel newsham: we can argue over arch anothter time, lets #! not scare rsc9 off ;) #! #! newsham i have nothing to argue about.. #! #! rsc9 back #! #! uriel newsham: sorry, my english sucks, I mean "discus" #! #! rsc9 musasabi: don't understand the question #! oh, if you're talking about readline, you should be #! able to call read. #! how often do you read passwords anyway? #! #! musasabi rsc9: readline (readln and probably other names), e{malloc,free,realloc} #! and probably others. #! #! __20h__ auth_proxy(); #! #! uriel you could use a gui app for reading pass... #! #! __20h__ Factotum does the password management. #! #! uriel rsc9: it would be interesting to know more of what #! are your plans for p9p #! __20h__: yup #! #! mjl- emalloc and stuff has already been discussed, read #! the archives #! #! rsc9 i don't really have plans. as i need more software, #! i convert it. but i'm at a stable point now. #! #! uriel rsc9: I guess I was thinking more from the POV of bringing #! both code-bases closer.. #! #! __20h__ dtLinux - stable #! #! uriel (I have heard rumours that the venti code in p9p is #! more uptodate than in p9...) #! #! rsc9 one thing on the horizon is adding a c front end compiler #! so that the sources look more the same. #! the sources already look almost identical (acme is #! the big exception but even those changes are simple #! if tedious) #! #! newsham c->c ? #! #! rsc9 yes #! #! musasabi mjl-: actually I was the one proposing it in the archives #! ;) #! #! rsc9 http://swtch.com/usr/local/plan9/src/cmd/venti #! #! uriel yes, that is a problem, hopefully I will get charless #! to fix up kencc some time this century and the OpenBSD #! guys will take care of the porting #! #! rsc9 no no no. i am not putting a real compiler in. just #! c->c. #! #! uriel rsc9: just curious, why not? #! -pperez #! #! musasabi 8c can be compiled on *nix, but the output is just #! not very usable. #! #! --------- 5 mins #! #! rsc9 because porting a compiler requires making it work #! with all the system libraries and the like. it's too #! much work. #! the p9p goal is to play well with unix. #! #! uriel rsc9: I see your point, still I hope some day someone #! does it #! #! quintile rsc9: the new venti include auth? #! #! newsham musasabi: wouldn't be that hard to fix it to emit useable #! (ie. elf) binaries (some arches already have a linker #! flag) #! #! rsc9 besides, who really wants to keep up with all the library #! conventions on sunos. #! emitting elf is easy. emitting useful debugging is #! much harder. #! i have an 8c that can create hello, world. #! #! Major-Wi ELF -- yuk #! #! newsham blah dwarf. #! #! uriel rsc9: I'd be interested in seeing that(even if trivial) #! #! rsc9 i have yet to hear a good idea about how to do auth #! in venti. #! #! uriel rsc9: what about the venti rewrite #! (which I found out about by reading the notes file #! in rejected patches....) #! #! rsc9 i'm in the middle of rewriting venti. it's a lot faster, #! perhaps a little buggier, and needs a bit of cleanup #! before it will be ready for prime time. #! any other projects people care about? #! #! newsham wouldnt even a very limited amount of auth be significantly #! better than no auth? #! #! uriel rsc9: just curious, but don't you think that this kinds #! of cases the Open Source mantra of "release early, #! release often", could help? #! #! noselasd What projects are there - (at the labs , if any) ? #! #! rsc9 newsham: let's postpone the venti auth. i can't do #! multiple conversations. #! #! newsham ok #! #! Major-Wi i have a cool idea for venti, but it's an expensive #! venture #! #! quintile projects - cross domain auth between servers (for a #! grid). #! #! Major-Wi too complex #! #! rsc9 uriel: release early, release often only works if you #! have time to keep up with the submitted changes. i'm #! focusing on something other than venti. #! #! uriel rsc9: ok, I thought it could help with testing, and #! maybe someone could pick up if you dont' have the time #! to maintain/finish it, but well.. #! #! rsc9 the venti code is available if you want to hack on #! it. it's in the same place as plan 9 ports. module #! name is venti instead of plan9. #! #! uriel quintile: I think that was discused at OSDI and rejected, #! the current model seems good enough, otherwise I would #! recomend you to talk with charles about the Inferno #! auth model.. #! #! newsham uriel: so far nobody's really picked up ron's xen stuff #! if you're looking for stuff to pick up... #! #! uriel rsc9: ok, thanks #! newsham: I know, I'm not saying that it will hapen, #! I'm just saying that it costs nothing to give people #! a chance #! #! quintile uriel: yep, just interested in russ's opinion. #! #! rsc9 lucho helped me find some things. he emailed me. #! #! uriel newsham: didn't kuroneko pick up your spark code? #! #! __20h__ Are there plans to have more than the PC-distribution? #! #! rsc9 as for venti auth, it's just not a priority. #! #! uriel newsham: and didn't ericvh pick up v9fs even if after #! some years? #! #! newsham uriel: so far three people have approached me interested #! in sparc v8 stuff. I dont really know what has become #! of their work.. they may still be working on it. #! #! rsc9 calling it a pc distribution is a little misleading. #! it's a full distribution, it just only installs on #! pcs. #! #! uriel newsham: the thing is that maybe you get something #! useful out of it, maybe not, but the chance is worth #! it, I think, #! anyway, just to be anoying, what about 9load... ;P #! #! rsc9 what about it? #! #! uriel is someone working on it? #! #! rsc9 as far as i know, not much is happening with 9load. #! #! uriel I also have heard(from third hand) of a rewrite of #! 9load.. #! #! rsc9 vbe support got contributed for 9load, though i plan #! to move it out. #! jmk is working on an amd64 port, which includes cleaning #! up 9load some, but it's not a from-scratch rewrite. #! #! uriel ok, I guess that leave us free to fix the anoying IDE #! handling... :) #! #! rsc9 what annoying ide handling? #! #! uriel rsc9: any chances we will get any of that cleaning #! up? #! #! rsc9 any of what? #! #! uriel rsc9: if you don't have your ide devices in the right #! magic convination it wont work #! #! rsc9 huh? #! #! uriel rsc9: 9load clean up... #! rsc9: ever tries to install having your CD-ROM as secondary #! master? #! #! m4dh4tt3 yeah #! #! rsc9 the 9load cleanup will come out when the amd64 port #! is ready. i believe the changes to 9load are pretty #! minimal so don't worry about it. #! #! uriel rsc9: its' a very commonly reported problem #! #! m4dh4tt3 i do it all the time #! #! rsc9 does the kernel work in that situation? #! #! m4dh4tt3 sure does #! #! noselasd uriel: works fine. You just need to type the magic #! sdD1!... and so on :-) #! #! uriel rsc9: it should, I would say... but IIRC it has also #! some problems #! noselasd9: nope #! #! rsc9 ide probing is black magic. the sdata there is supposed #! to be similar to the sdata in the kernel (dma is yanked #! out), so feel free to compare and fix. #! #! m4dh4tt3 all you have to do is specify a different drive to #! load the kernel and the root fs #! #! noselasd uriel: funny, cause I did that yesterday though.. #! #! uriel noselasd9: it doesn't work, and I have gone thru that #! problem at least three different times, the people #! at the 9con can tell you, we were a room packed with #! plan9 users and no one could get it to work until we #! changed the ide config #! #! newsham m4d: isnt that because of the plan9.ini, not the 9load? #! #! rsc9 ide probing is black magic. some systems have buggy #! bioses too. #! #! m4dh4tt3 newsham: iirc, yes #! #! uriel rsc9: yes, that too :( #! #! rsc9 if you want to go after this bug and fix it, please #! do. trust me -- it won't go away on its own. #! #! m4dh4tt3 ide probing is indeeed black magic. i've seen some #! really bizarre stuff #! #! uriel rsc9: ok, thanks #! drawterm.. #! who maintains it? f2f says he doesn't, even if he does... #! #! rsc9 i hate drawterm. andrey is doing a good job maintaining #! the 9p1 drawterm. #! #! uriel I hate dt too, but it's a fact of life.. #! #! rsc9 brucee is busy with other stuff though i think he might #! have a good 9p2000 drawterm at some point. #! dt2k is worth using, and if it didn't crash once in #! a while i'd install it. #! eventually i want to replace drawterm with a collection #! of programs in plan9port. #! #! uriel would be nice if f2f's changes were in the main distro, #! and handled with patch, but f2f won't do it because #! he says "I'm not the maintainer", so he basically maintains #! a fork #! #! rsc9 but progress is slow. i do have ssl working though. #! #! uriel rsc9: where is dt2k? #! ACTION has never seen it, but I know f2f has got the #! code for some ancient version of it somewhere.. #! #! f2f if you notice, uriel, the binaries have disappeared #! from the main distro with a small note pointing to #! ucalgary. #! #! uriel f2f: ah, that is new, and I don't like it, but well... #! #! f2f i think rsc just doesn't want that mess in p9 #! #! uriel would be nice to have it in sources at least #! contrib/f2f? #! #! f2f i'm fine with ucalgary until a better replacement comes. #! this is where the dt2k code is too, at least the latest #! version i have #! #! rsc9 andrey is in the drawterm group now. #! #! uriel cool #! #! f2f rsc, do you want me to merge the dt changes? #! #! rsc9 the 9p1 changes? yes. #! #! f2f ok, will do #! #! rsc9 brucee is swamped with other work. he won't mind. #! #! uriel ACTION would like to know more about dt2k and what #! is going on with it :) #! #! f2f but i'll keep the binaries on the web #! #! rsc9 dt2k works well enough that i use it every day to apply #! patches. #! it crashes occasionally (some x problem) and i restart #! it. #! i never got around to a windows port. #! i don't believe it's the right approach so i am loathe #! to spend time debugging it. #! yes please keep binaries on the web. #! #! uriel rsc9: I think I know many people that would apreciate #! dt2k even without windoze port #! (and I know others that might fix the windoze port) #! #! rsc9 google the 9fans archives for dt2k. i put it out there. #! #! uriel ok, that is the latest version then? #! #! rsc9 sure. #! #! Major-Wi drawterm is pretty solid #! #! uriel ok, will do.. #! #! f2f http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~mirtchov/p9/dt2k.tgz #! #! uriel f2f: that is the latest version too? #! #! f2f i got this from skip and made it compile cleanly under #! X #! #! uriel I see... #! #! f2f that's the latest i've heard about #! #! rsc9 do you use it? does it crash? #! #! f2f it crashes, yes. i don't use it because the alpha blending #! is messed up (BGR vs RGB i believe) #! and it's a bit slower #! #! axelB (what about "replace drawterm with a collection of #! programs in plan9port" and windows?) #! #! Major-Wi BGR? #! #! rsc9 what about it? #! #! uriel axelB: ah, fuck windows! (sorry, could not restis ;P) #! #! axelB just wondering. p9p doesn't do windows, I thought #! #! noselasd uriel: can you ever ? :) #! #! uriel noselasd9: if you knew... #! #! rsc9 eventually plan9port will work on windows. don't care #! enough right now. very happy with my mac. #! #! axelB ok. fine #! #! __20h__ Cygwin? #! #! uriel axelB: buy a mac mini, they are cheap ;) #! #! Major-Wi err, p9p port to windows is a major, hideous task #! #! rsc9 it's not any more work than the original unix work. #! i've done it before. #! #! m4dh4tt3 i miss the mac i had for my previous job #! #! uriel I guess another issue is p9p integration with v9fs #! and similar, but without eric or lucho around I think #! better leave that for other time #! #! rsc9 my position is that p9p will not become dependent on #! v9fs -- it needs to work on systems without v9fs -- #! but i'm perfectly happy if lucho and eric need hooks. #! #! uriel rsc9: sounds reasonable.. #! #! rsc9 we put one hook in already. auth_proxy tries to open #! /mnt/factotum/* before switching to the p9p factotum #! socket. #! #! musasabi Is there a reason plan9 headers don't have #ifdef protection #! agains multiple #includes ? (stdio.h mainly - some #! headers have function prototypes with FILE* and making #! sure stdio.h is included just once adds many trivial #! (unnecessary) changes. #! #! uriel musasabi: that is a well known one, use sane headers #! #! rsc9 don't include headers twice. #! #! uriel exactly #! #! rsc9 if you're compiling legacy code, then use ape. the #! ape stdio.h is protected. #! #! uriel musasabi: feel free to add to the faq #! rsc9: BTW, could you update the running version of #! the wiki, I really need it to make the FAQ page useable.. #! #! Major-Wi Is there a reason plan9 headers don't have #ifdef protection #! agains multiple #includes ? -- YES, YOU are 'sposed #! to get that right #! #! musasabi ACTION uses the "not my code" and "uriel will flame #! me to death for APE" arguments. #! #! rsc9 google for "follow the simple rule" pike #! if it's not your code, you should use ape. #! #! uriel or fix it :) #! #! __20h__ Or delete it. #! #! Major-Wi rm is a swell prgramm debugger #! #! musasabi nontrivial socket code + APE was not very nice so I #! am trying to live with 8c -p. #! #! uriel rsc9: I got some changes to the templates of the wiki, #! I haven't sent them because I have seen that the ones #! in the distribution and the ones in the plan 9 wiki #! are not in sync anyway... #! #! m4dh4tt3 when fixing it means re-writing it, the probability #! that it will get done approaches zero #! #! rsc9 uriel: i think i restarted wikifs #! #! uriel rsc9: let me check again... #! #! [...] #! #! rsc9 gotta go. forgot about another appt. #