04:14 < caerwyn> yeah. i saw that. it's nice to have inferno mentioned but you can't expect to cover that too. you're already covering a lot. 04:15 < caerwyn> the thing i'd push, both for plan9 and inferno, is the idea that you can become a hacker of the whole system. 04:16 < caerwyn> not just the kernel, or some tools, or the window manager, but you can understand 04:16 < caerwyn> the whole thing 04:16 < caerwyn> if you want to understand systems, you need something you can grasp 04:16 < caerwyn> and modern unixes are beyond that now. 04:17 < caerwyn> it's an amazing thing to be hacking on the editor, and deciding i need a quick fix in the emu, then pull in some code in the web browser, and write a new text tool while i'm at it. 04:18 < uriel> caerwyn: that is a really very good point 04:22 < caerwyn> i think it's a very good point too :) i kinda think this is pike's point in the utah paper you like to quote. yell to the audience, "it's about systems, stupid!" 04:22 < caerwyn> not just the OS, programmer's need to learn to appreciate Systems! 04:24 < caerwyn> it's hard to put in words, but when you see it all work together, like in plan9 and inferno, you recognize the elements that make good systems. 04:25 < uriel> yup, I agree completely..